This dialogue is reprinted with permission from the Institute of Chung Hua Buddhist Culture in New York. It was first published in Chan Magazine Volume 12, Number 4, Fall 1992.
Question: How is Chan similar or different from psychotherapy? Is the relationship between student and Master similar to that of patient and therapist?
Shifu: There are similarities and differences. The goals of Chan are to eliminate ignorance and vexation, to see in to one's self nature and to realize bodhi. We can say the goal of psychotherapy is to eliminate or alleviate a persons internal conflicts, confusion, contradictions and sense of helplessness, etc. Thus they are similar in that they address issues of the mind, and that their goal is to help people come to a level of clarity. The difference is in the degree of clarity. Psychology doesn't speak of self-nature and spiritual awakening. It tries to help a person become more stable and to understand and deal with his or her problems. If therapy is successful a person can become somewhat wiser and happier.
Not having studied Western psychology and psychoanalysis in depth, I do not have a good understanding of what therapists do. I am more qualified to talk about Chan. It is better to talk to psychologists about therapy. With this in mind I will try to answer questions.
Student: In Chan, how does one deal with personal problems? Does one just treat the symptom or does one not bother with it at all? The advice I am usually given is to ignore whatever arises in my mind while I meditate. Causes and conditions and causes and consequences are many and complex, so that it is difficult to find the direct source of a problem. Could one say that the Chan attitude is: If you can't find a cause, don't bother with it?
Shifu: Chan does not address specific psychological problems and their causes. The Chan Master will rarely analyze a personal situation. Rather, the Chan Master leads people to pose their own questions. When people are restless, they should find the questions and answers themselves. It is for students to realize that, after all, problems exist because they are attached to a particular idea of self. People are creating problems for themselves. Therefore, they must come to realize and resolve the problems themselves. Depending on the role of the therapist in various schools of psychology, Chan is either similar or different in this matter.
There are two categories of practice. One is the practice of no method and the other is practice with a method. The first can be summed up by the Sixth Patriarch's words, "Thinking of neither good nor evil, where is your mind right now?" This approach ultimately leads to the Ts'ao-tung (Soto) sect's method of silent illumination. Practice with a method may be based on gongan, hua-t'ou, or counting the breaths. In the practice of no method, the practitioner maintains awareness of thoughts as they arise, but does not respond to them. Eventually, thoughts lessen until wisdom manifests. In the practice with methods, the student also ignores vexing thoughts, but by turning the mind towards a method, the mind becomes focused one-pointedly; eventually, the method itself will disappear and wisdom will manifest. The goals are the same: the meditator realizes that the problems that cause restlessness and instability are rooted in and created by the illusory self. For Chan, analysis and explanation are not necessary.
In some forms of psychology, the therapist engages in dialogue to find out what has been happening in the patients mind. Patient and therapist aspire to come to some understanding of the problem. Chan Masters typically do not do this. Therapists may try to determine patients' problems by associating symptoms with the systems or theories they are versed in. This is not always reliable because everyone has a different life story and experiences. Therapists may believe their analysis and approach are objective, but they may be wrong.
Furthermore, to rely fully on science is limiting. There also exist things not measurable and observable. For example, therapists cannot cope with problems deriving from karmic force or demonic obstructions because their theories do not address these types of problems. The Chan Master does not try to solve personality problems. Students are given methods and they deal with their own problems.
There are people with a variety of psychological problems that cannot be helped by Chan. However, when they undergo therapy, they may come away from each session with a feeling of ease or consolation. The problems may not be solved but there is temporary relief. That is not to say that therapy is useless, but for many patients therapy can become a crutch to get through the day or week. Real progress is never made.
Everybody should be able to practice Chan, but there are those who are not interested. They do not have the confidence or are not willing to make the effort. Until these factors change, these people simply cannot and will not be able to resolve their problems through Chan.
I guide students in their practise. I really do not have to put on the hat of a therapist, but there are people who have been on several retreats and have not solved certain persistent problems. Therefore, during retreat interviews, I may ask questions and play the role of therapist, even though I have no formal training. I base my teaching and guidance on my own understanding of the human mind and Buddhadharma. For this reason some retreatants may feel they have gained benefits similar to those of therapy. What I do is not typically Chan, however. The typical role of the Chan Master is to throw the problem back at the practitioner, with the advice to just continue with the practice.
Some people tell me all their problems as if they want me to read their autobiography. I don't have time to listen to all of it, so I say, "I don't want to know the details, so I'll give you a method to use." Here is an analogy. There is a kind of parasite which attaches to the body and sucks blood. Suppose you find your body covered with these parasites. One way to help yourself is to pick them off one by one. That would take a long time and require much effort. A much simpler solution is to throw salt on them, and the parasites will fall off. Chan is like the salt treatment for parasites. It does not address every individual problem.
To deal with problems in each instance is to try and remove the parasites one by one. It is messy and sometimes dangerous. While you are picking one off, the rest of them have time to penetrate further. Or you may only have stunned them; or worse, you may cut one into three pieces only to create more parasites because they can regenerate. Psychological problems can be like this. When you think you have finished dealing with a problem, it can reappear in another form, or in many other forms. There is also the danger of parasites getting on the therapist. It is better and easier to throw salt on the body.
For this reason many therapists have expressed interest in Chan and Buddhism. Numerous analysts and therapists have come here to practise and have developed more insight. They tell me that Chan reinforces and supplements their methods. A therapist incorporating Buddhist teaching is like a tiger with wings.
Student: I have been in therapy for ten years. There is a concept in psychoanalysis called denial. For example, somebody in an office yells at everyone and then thinks that no one likes him. He doesn't realize that he is causing people to dislike him. He is totally unaware of his problem. That is denial. Is this like ignoring your problems in Chan?
Shifu: It is not the same. With Chan you are aware of what you are doing or thinking or saying. It is just that you detach yourself from the problem. That is the method to use. Most problems are due to attaching to a view of self or a recurring thought. If you ignore the thought and do not respond to it, eventually it will cease to come up and bother you. For most problems coming up while meditating, ignoring them is the best method. If you have another method for dealing with those problems, then use that method.
If, during retreat you encounter problems and don't know how to deal with them, it's probably best to ignore them. Or you could ask me for guidance. I may also tell you to ignore the problem, or I may give you a method to deal with it.
Student: Should this way of dealing with problems while meditating carry over into daily life as well?
Shifu: If you meditate on a regular basis, yes. I am not saying that people should go through life ignoring and denying their problems and difficulties, but most problems are not serious. By dwelling on them, we blow them out of proportion. These minor problems are best ignored. Problems that have been around for a long time and show up in many forms need to be addressed. Such problems need special attention. If you need help, I will listen and perhaps offer guidance, or you could go to a therapist.
Student: Psychotherapy usually deals with neuroses, not psychoses, so things like demonic obstructions do not usually come up, although I am sure there is a lot of stuff from people's past karma that comes up and influences problems.
Psychotherapy deals with motivation. If you are supposed to write to a friend and you procrastinate for no apparent reason, then there might be something blocking your motivation. That's neurosis. Psychosis is when you cannot deal with reality even on a simple level.
Good therapists do not tell you your problems. They try to get you to realize what your problems are. They also deal quite often with early childhood. A child who had difficulties dealing with parents may find similar but magnified problems arising in adulthood.
Finally, psychotherapy is in the realm of small self or ego. It's been helpful for me. It helps me get through everyday problems. But I couldn't exist only with therapy. It's like running around in a dark room bumping into objects. Therapy gives me some bearings, but I am still in a dark room with the objects.
Shifu: Thank you for enlightening me on the role of psychotherapy. I like it that therapists allow patients to figure out their own problems. I also like your last remark. One can get a lot of benefit from therapy, but if one depends exclusively on it, it's still like running around in a darkened room. Therapy has its uses but it is not enough.
Models of therapy are usually developed by a single person. That person's life, experience and karma influence what he or she thinks and feels. Therefore, a psychological model is often a study of the mind of its inventor, and not necessarily an accurate picture of people in general. Also, therapies are often based on scientific method, so they have to do with things that can be observed, measured, proven. If it cannot be proven or disproven, it is not science. Therefore, it is difficult for analysts to accept things like demonic obstructions and karmic force.
On the other hand, things like hearing voices are not necessarily caused by demonic obstructions. It is useful to know something about psychotherapy. Some who cannot benefit now from Chan, would be wise to seek help from therapists. I have sometimes advised people to go into therapy before attempting intense practice. There is no harm in meditating an hour or so each day, but going on intensive retreats is another story. Chan and psychotherapy can work hand in hand.
Student: I am still not clear on one issue. How is the Chan way of ignoring the problem different from denying or repressing the problem.
Shifu: One does not ignore problems in the ordinary sense. You do not repress your thoughts and desires. You do not force them out of your mind. You allow thoughts to enter your mind and leave your mind. Be aware of them but do not follow them. This is difficult to do, and only people who practice diligently on a regular basis can develop the clarity and will power to do this.
You cannot make thoughts and desires go away. They will come, in one form or another - disguised, in dreams, intermittently, in floods. Meditators must use their experience and knowledge of Buddhadharma to identify and come to terms with their problems. Also, it is best to perform some type of repentance practice, such as prostrations, to help reduce self centredness. These are all useful techniques, but there are no guarantees they will work all the time.
Meditation makes you clearer as to when thoughts and feelings arise as well as the motivation behind them. You begin to see the roots and seeds of vexation within you, and with such clarity comes the ability to deal with them better. You can refrain from acting on these thoughts and feelings. If you don't water weeds, they won't grow. If you do, then your garden will be over run. Some people don't mind this. Many weeds produce beautiful flowers. At least, you will know who is responsible for the consequences.
Awareness brings control and power, power to deal with your vexations. You may give in to them anyway, because you can't do otherwise or because you want to give in. There is the saying that ignorance is bliss. Those who are completely controlled by their thoughts and desires have no idea why they do what they do. They say, "This is who I am ," and suffer the consequences time and time again. Some blame others. Others just resign themselves to a life of suffering.
Hopefully practitioners are different. Hopefully, meditation, repentance and the Dharma can bring one greater self-awareness, self-control and humility. However, Buddhists are not perfect and the spiritual path is not always smooth, straight or clearly marked. That is why what we do is called practice. For all of us there will be times when the flood comes. The best advice I can give for times like that, is to keep your mind on your practice, learn how to swim, keep your head above water, and get on to higher ground. Learn how to survive your own self-created floods.
