In Chan practice everyone's experience of retreat and its processes are different. No two people sit exactly the same retreat and no two people follow the same personal path over the course of their Buddhist practice. On retreat, however, the group requires instruction and teachings that bring the Dharma to life so talks and lectures are designed for all practitioners in a general way. But because we are all different there is still a need for the individual to receive some personalised direction and advice. This is given one-to-one in a private session between teacher and practitioner and it is during this dialogue that the important teaching for each person occurs. We sometime call this interview by its Japanese name, dokusan, which means 'going alone to a respected one' and this conversation is central to the retreat process. The interview offers particular things depending on the stage of retreat and the experience of the practitioner, but the focus of the teacher is on the way that this particular self gets in the way of attending to the moment.
On retreat the self arises in various ways through the work on the cushion and other focussed activities. Different elements of who we are arise; thought patterns which may be linked to self-images, and attitudes or narratives and other experiences which may link to emotional and bodily states. As a retreat begins there is a strong tendency to focus on thought patterns and allowing the mind to wander - to ramble through the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. This is the activity of the self and usually in the first instance it includes processes operating to disguise underlying problematic thoughts and feelings. The process of retreat is to follow the method and then to recognise the processes of the self in such a way that its effect diminishes, and when the self settles and becomes at ease it allows what arises to arise.
The interview is the means by which the teacher provides personal instruction on the method to ensure that each individual is following it helpfully; it is the most important means by which the practitioner checks out their own application and progress with the method. Through conversation the teacher examines what is happening during meditation, in such a way as to allow the practitioner to come to appreciate and hence go on to undermine those self-processes that overprotect and disturb us. The interview therefore directs toward the possibility of loosening the way the self binds us. Through this personal contact with practitioners a teacher is able to establish how each practitioner is getting on and thereby help accordingly, and it is vital that the teacher engage with practitioners in this way. Similarly it is vital for the practitioners to be able to present an account of what is happening for them, and their problems and concerns, so that in a supportive and encouraging context they may receive appropriate guidance. The interview is based on joint commitment and mutuality; the teacher has a commitment as a Buddhist to be there and be present for that particular person, and the practitioner has the commitment to respect the practice and process that we are all engaged in. In this way, it is the Dharma that holds the teacher and practitioner in their relationship.
The History of the Interview in Buddhism
The practice of individual teaching began with Shakyamuni Buddha; it was a practice of being available and directing the teaching to the practitioners' understanding of that moment. The individualised element of it was recognised by Chan Master Shramana Zhiy-i (538- 597 CE) in the books that he wrote which were the initial systematic presentation of Buddhist teachings. In The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation, he identifies one of the prerequisites of embarking of meditation as being the need to 'draw near spiritual friends' some of who need to be instructive of methodi. In his The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutraii amongst other things he categorises the way the Buddha taught which includes what is termed the "secret" teaching. These are teachings that the listeners understand differently according to their respective capacities and from which they each receive a different benefit - in other words, it is a teaching only relevant in a particular way for a particular person. Yasutani Roshi identifies this teaching method of the Buddha's as corresponding to dokusan interviews and he goes on to say that without this "individual guidance we cannot say that our practice of zazen is authentic"iii
Whereas this individual teaching aspect has always been present in Buddhist and indeed Chan's history, in its earlier forms it was not necessarily private; for example, Master Dogen's teacher, Nyojo, had exchanges with individuals that were overheard by other students. Additionally there were also question and answer dialogues, known as mondo, between master and monks in public teaching sessions, in which the master was able to offer comments that addressed individual monks' concerns. However, over a long period, the practice of private interview has been central to Chan, originating in monastic communities, and continuing to be an essential feature of practice in the West.
What is an interview?
In an interview, the practitioner brings what is arising for him or herself. The teacher listens and if necessary clarifies what is being said. There then follows a joint discussion about this in a way that leads to suggestions following on how to proceed within the context of the adopted method on the retreat. Obviously there will be some difference in the discussion if the retreat is one that is following the koan method as opposed to one that is following silent illumination, but its content is also determined by the nature of what is concerning the individual at any point. Typically, for newcomers and perhaps even for regular retreatants, initial interviews focus directly on the method - posture, breathing, what to do with wandering thought etc. Once a degree of stability of method has been achieved, often what arises then are concerns about our self and our relationships, as the problems and worries that face us in our daily lives are usually the thoughts that are at the forefront of our thinking. So past relationships, present personal and interpersonal dilemmas and future desires fill our head. It can be as if we go to the movies in our thoughts, telling ourselves stories about what happened or what we would like to see happen. In an interview, such thoughts and feelings will prompt statements such as, "I've been thinking about my mother/partner/ work colleagues etc." and this can then lead to a discussion about how such thoughts and feelings form obstacles to clarity of mind and a sense of authenticity.
Another area of concern, and often confusion, which arises, is that of the relevance of the teachings of Buddhism to the individual. Often this is stimulated by the substance of a talk or explanation of Buddhist principles. In interview it can prompt statements such as, "I don't think I can keep all the precepts all the time", "I become frightened when I think about how I am impermanent." The teacher's broad aim in such interviews is to assist in the development of wisdom and understanding, especially how the teachings are manifested in reality, for this person now. It is a process of helping with the development of realisation of the Buddhadharma.
A further arena of experience that is discussed in interview is the experience of meditation itself. This is when the practitioner reports on the direct realisation of experience on the cushion, and in a paradoxical way typical of Chan completes a circle. Previously the practitioner reports on just the sitting and the uncertainties of this, but now the report is of just sitting. When this occurs the teacher's aim is to help with expansion of this actualisation of experience and hence develop and stabilise insight.
Following the stabilisation of the practice of the method these areas of arising concerns, the problems of daily life (samsara), the personal manifestation of the Dharma and then actualisation, all flow through each retreat in a different manner for each participant. There is no set pattern or particular way things occur as, regardless of any intention we may have, these concerns of ours follow their own route both during a single retreat and over time across several retreats. Through this process we learn how our mind works in its own idiosyncratic manner but certainly, as a person's practice deepens, there tends to be more focus on the latter two areas. The overall task of the teacher through the interview is to help with the movement from samsara to a personal realisation of the Buddhadharma and onto the actualisation of the Buddha. This, of course, rests on the skilful means of the teacher and should be understood by the practitioner as the underlying purpose of the interview and indeed, in general, of Chan training. The teacher's skill is to find the most appropriate way of helping this practitioner at this time, with this process of meditation. It is directed by the needs of the practitioner but within the context of our Buddhist practice.
Why practice?
Many of us come to practice in the first place because of a particular life issue that is seeking some resolution and it is appropriate that this issue is looked at through the process of practice. But for all practitioners who commit to the path there is an important quest just below the surface and that is the desire to understand the nature of the self. It is an awareness, even if only a remote inclining, of this underlying search that bring any and all to practice and because of this we all have to confront the questions "Why practice?" and "What is practice?" Sometimes our practice seems to be just about 'me' and at other times it can fleetingly touch on the universal, and in this there is no route map or itinerary. As our experience on the cushion moves us in and out of different areas of concern, sometimes separately and sometimes in a mingled manner, we come to our own resolution of the 'practice' koan no matter what method we follow. In travelling along this path, we benefit greatly from the support, guidance and advice of the teacher, given to all via talks and personally through the interview conversation. Indeed the teacher, as a fellow practitioner, will have travelled his or her own journey along this path and will always have been assisted along the way by respected teachers; past teachers who in some way through the present teacher's memories continue to have a presence.
The interview - conceptions and misconceptions in Western practice
As there are clearly benefits from meditation and practice, a view has developed that meditation is a mental health method and the interview is merely another form of psychotherapy. Indeed since its origin Buddhism has been seen as offering health gaining practices, having a range of tools for both mental and physical healing. No doubt throughout the ages this aspect of Buddhist practice has played a major role in its growth and popularisation, with the Buddha been seen as a physician offering Medicine. However, it is incorrect to view the interview as psychotherapy. For us to appreciate how the assignment of this label arose it is necessary to look at the history of the Dharma and its introduction to the West. We need to consider the historical foundations of what is now termed the Buddhist 'theory of psychology'.
A good beginning here is the Abhidharmaiv a teaching written down perhaps just 100 years after the death of the Buddha and based on his talks. Amongst other things, it deals with the skandas, the five elements that constitute a person's physical and mental functioning, and in a precise way it outlines our own particular type of mind. From this it moves to understanding the core of the ego and it painstakingly highlights how any experience can become a blockage to appreciating reality or even a path to freeing ourselves. This explanation clearly predates the field of psychology by over 2,000 years, thus any comparison or description of Buddhism and its practices in terms of psychology and psychotherapy is necessarily a modern invention. As Chogyam Trungpa has noted;
"Many modern psychologists have found that the recent discoveries and explanations of the Abhidharma coincide with their own recent discoveries and new ideas; as though the Abhidharma, which was taught 2,500 years ago, had been redeveloped in the modern idiom.v"
The primary concern of the Abhidharma is to understand the nature of experience from the standpoint of the experience itself i.e. it is concerned with internal processes. In this we can see the obvious links to the processes of the interview. In its focus this teaching displays a significant difference to the development of modern scientific psychology in that psychology began its study from the standpoint of an objective observer. However, the link between Buddhism and psychology is clear, with Trungpa of the opinion that Buddhism would come to the West as a psychology, and this is what has occurred. This view is supported by Carl Jung's earlier declaration who, in his foreword to Suzuki's Introduction to Zen Buddhism, whilst acknowledging the inadequacy of Westerners' attempts to comprehend Zen experiences through the lens of Western intellectualism, he contends:
"The only movement inside our civilisation which has, or should have, some understanding of these endeavours is psychotherapy. It is therefore no accident that it is a psychotherapist who is writing this foreword."vi
With the spread of Buddhism to the West, and the rise of interest in the mind in the 20th century, Western authors started to be interested in the ideas and practices of Buddhism. But they had to rely on their contemporary terminology and hence Buddhists and non-Buddhist researchers began reinterpreting Buddhist practices in psychological terms, and naturally many aspects of Buddhist practice with its focus on liberation and enlightenment have been interpreted as being close to psychotherapy. (See Alan Watts, 'Psychotherapy East and Westvii' and Jack Kornfield, 'A Path with Heartviii' ). Certainly, there are similarities between practice and psychotherapy but as Charlotte Joko Beck notes;
"There are lots of ways to try to get what we want. Psychotherapy is often one of those things we try. Indeed, it is often very useful - and yet, psychotherapy often falls short of leading us completely to a satisfying life... ...[In contrast] over time and very slowly, the [Zen] student sees that the answers to life - a life that is sane and fruitful - don't lie in some mystical la-la land but in her own mind and body, in her own direct experience. As Zen practice continues, as the student builds courage and determination, she notices that the inherent dualism of a "me" looking at "problems" needs to be questioned. The ceaseless (and futile!) efforts to fix oneself and others fade as it becomes obvious that the fixing is simply not the answer to human difficulties. When this happens a person begins to comprehend the crucial difference between "fixing" and "transforming"ix
Hence Buddhism and psychotherapy are different in that they involve different processes and have different goals. Although some western Buddhists have fully embraced psychotherapy into their conception of Buddhism (see Barry Magidx and Mark Epsteinxi), at their core there is a difference even if here in the West similar language and sometimes conceptions may be used. Both teachers and therapists bring an awareness of the process of what the client/student is engaged in. Both have to stand in the middle of a paradox of struggling/not struggling, of acceptance/of change, with the aim to help the other transcend these paradoxes and become more natural. The relative strengths of the aims of psychotherapy and Buddhism is that psychotherapy is interested in this change process for the personal benefit of fixing, whereas Buddhism is interested in it in terms of transcending the difficulties that we face as individuals. To a significant extent, however, the process of western adaptation involves Western Buddhist teachers being cognisant of and making use of psychological principles in order to expand their awareness and understanding of the ways of the mind. Indeed in order to have a fuller appreciation of the interactive interview dialogue many teachers have undertaken some training in counselling and psychotherapy. The task in dealing with the needs of adaptation is to hold onto the teachings of reality, which have been unchanging in the history of Buddhism, whilst at the same moment expressing its authentic voice at this time and in this location. This task was well undertaken by John Crook and it explains why he originally named our organisation the WCF as the 'Chan' element recognises the natural flowing of the authentic lineage through the necessary contours of the 'Western' context.
At the centre of this discussion is being clear about the nature of the interview in Chan practice, and in doing this we touch right at the actual heart of the nature of practice. Initially we may think it is to resolve some personal issue but as John Daido Loori clarifies for us:
"A person's motivation distinguishes Zen training from other practices - from entering into psychotherapy, for example, or doing some kind of self-help. Usually when people enter into therapy, they're motivated by a problem that needs resolving, which is very different from asking the question, "Who am I?" Even in cases where the motivating force is to address personal pain, underneath that pain needs to be a deeper question about the nature of reality, the nature of the self."xii
Within the overall processes of an ongoing practice, the interview is the opportunity, in dialogue, for the practitioner to directly ponder the nature of self and the nature of reality. Even if it seems as though any discussed topic is mundane, in interview the teacher will always be holding onto the way the seemingly ordinary impinge on deeper questions and indeed on the nature of being itself.
Some examples
Taken from our own library of accounts of experiences on retreat, here are some examples of interview dialogues.
A Moment in Dokusan
"I'm frightened!"
"How big do you feel?"
"Oh - small"
"How old are you?"
"Seven".
"Be kind to the little boy inside you. Go and look into his fear."xiii
People Talking in a Big Space
I asked John for an interview. We went upstairs, he lit two candles on the shrine, What is life? 'People talking in a big space'... I tried to describe the feeling. John asked, almost casually, whether there was one word that summed up this feeling. I was blank for a moment then it came to me... love. John said, "Yes, I thought that might be it..." and asked other questions which helped me explore and appreciate what I was feeling. This made me realise that it was a very spacious feeling, not particularly directed at any one person. Unlike all the previous responses, which became dust after a few minutes inspection, this one just expanded the more I looked at it.xiv
An Ending?
Every interview is different and of necessity idiosyncratic. It is personal and indeed singular not just to that practitioner and not just to that teacher but indeed only to the intimate conversation of these two people at that particular time. It is a unique meeting of two humans being engaged in the attempt to appreciate fully the Great Matter. Although it is a frequent, regular and repeating event, it can never be approached in a formulaic routine manner. It provides an anchor to the reality of practice. But in and of itself it is meaningless without the context of that practice; without the experience of ongoing meditation it lacks purpose and focus. Therefore the interview is an essential component of meditation practice, it cannot exist without practice and practice is not properly constituted without the interview. It is for this reason that we in the WCF Sangha stress the value of the interview in the process of Chan training.
References
[i] Shramara Zhiyi (Chih-i) trans Bhikshu Dharmamitra (2008) The Essential of Buddhist Meditation. Kalavinka Press. Seattle Washington
[ii] Shramara Zhiyi (Chih-i) The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra in Haiyen Shen (2005) The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra: T'ien-t'ai philosophy of Buddhism. Volume 2 of Buddhist studies series. Originals. Ann Arbour Michigan.
[iii] Yasutani Roshi ‘Introductory Lectures on Zen Training.’ In Philip Kapleau (1965) The Three Pillars of Zen Doubleday. Garden City New York. (p56)
[iv] A Manual of Abhidhamma - BuddhaNet www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
[v] Chogyam Trungpa (1974) Glimpses of Abhidharma. Shambala. Boston
[vi] Carl G. Jung1939 “Foreword to Suzuki’s ‘Introduction to Zen Buddhism’. in R.F.C. Hull (1978) Psychology and the East (trans).p154 Routledge and Kegan Paul London
[vii] Alan Watts (1961) Psychotherapy East and West Penguin Books. Harmomdsworth.
[viii] Jack Kornfield (1994) A Path with Heart. Bantam Books. New York. NY.
[ix] Charlotte Joko Beck foreword in Barry Magid (2002) Ordinary Mind: Exploring the Common Ground of Zen and Psychotherapy. Wisdom Publications. Boston Mass
[x] Barry Magid (2002) Ordinary Mind: Exploring the Common Ground of Zen and Psychotherapy. Wisdom Publications. Boston Mass
[xi] Mark Epstein (2007) Psychotherapy Without the Self. Yale University Press. New Haven. Conn
[xii] John Daido Loori (2013) The Motivation to Practice. https://zmm.mro.org/teachings/the-motivation-to-practice/3/ posted 23/03/2013
[xiii] https://westernchanfellowship.org/dharma/library/article/a-moment-in-dokusan/
[xiv] https://westernchanfellowship.org/dharma/library/article/people-talking-in-a-big-space/
